Conflict can feel like a threat, but what if it is actually a doorway to healing? I’m Sylvia Worsham, and I’m joined by David Cooley and Jessica Fern, authors of Transforming the Shame Triangle, for a grounded, intimate conversation about shame, attachment wounds, and the “shadow side” we try to avoid until it starts running our relationships.
David shares how living with chronic autoimmune illness pushed him to the edge of purpose, and why relationships became his reason to stay. He also brings a restorative justice lens that flips the usual adversarial approach to conflict. Instead of treating disagreements as a win-lose battle, we explore how to respond to emotional hurt in ways that create closeness, accountability, and repair.
Jessica opens up about growing up in an unstable home, carrying complex PTSD, and choosing post traumatic growth. Together, they model something many families think is impossible: an amicable divorce with intentional conscious uncoupling, respectful boundaries, and secure attachment for their child. We dig into attachment theory, nervous system triggers, anxious attachment and avoidant attachment patterns, and simple repair scripts that reduce defensiveness. You’ll also hear why respect is earned through values in action, and how transforming shame can make self love, compassion, and connection to God more available.
If you want practical tools for relationship healing, co-parenting after divorce, and healthier communication during conflict, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone navigating a hard season, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
To connect with David Cooley, visit his website at: restorativerelationship.com
To connect with Jessica Fern, visit her website at: jessicafern.com
To download a free chapter of host Sylvia Worsham’s bestselling book, In Faith, I Thrive: Finding Joy Through God’s Masterplan, purchase any of her products, or book a call with her, visit her website at www.sylviaworsham.com
Transcript:
If you’ve ever struggled with fear, doubt, or worry and wondering what your true purpose was all about, then this podcast is for you. In this show, your host, Sylvia Warsham, will interview elite experts and ordinary people that have created extraordinary lives. So here’s your host, Sylvia Warsham.
Hey Lightbringers, it’s Sylvia Warsham. Welcome to Release.reve Purpose. And today is David Cooley and Jessica Fern, authors of the book Transforming the Shame Triangle. It’s available on Amazon and released in October of last year. And boy, do we have a conversation to share with you guys today? Because David’s gonna likely dive into some relationship chatter, because this book is gonna dive into uh working with those different parts of us that we struggle with, we get stuck in. And so Jessica and David are gonna be talking about working with those difficult parts of us, the shadow side uh that none of us really want to address because it’s sometimes too painful. However, when we don’t address it, we leave wounds open, and unfortunately, we project what is inside of us, and that’s what we are attracting in our life. So it works both ways. We’re throwing out and we’re receiving this, and then that’s why we are in these perpetual cycles of generational trauma. Why we can’t break those cycles, why we’re like, what’s happening inside of us? Well, usually it’s because of programming, it’s because of modeling, it’s because of stuff that happened to us when we were little kids, and we didn’t realize that all of that was in our mind. And our mind produces these thoughts, and these thoughts unfortunately produce these big feelings in us, and then we start reacting and we have these horrible results in our life. So that’s why it’s important for us to dive into these topics. We’re all authors on this journey and in this conversation, and we’ve all written about these shadow pieces of us. So without further ado, thank you for joining us, David and Jessica on release out reveal purpose.
Yeah, thanks for having us. So great to be here.
It’s amazing how we’re all connected, honestly. And a lot of us are talking about these subjects in in a very big way. So, really, I don’t know who wants to go first, but David, tell us why this why you landed in in writing this book. What dark chapters did you navigate out of? And then we’ll follow up with Jessica.
Okay. Yeah, there’s been several dark chapters throughout my life. There’s been some significant losses over the years and personal crises. And I think these difficult moments in life often are the catalyst for some of the most profound inner growth. And so because of different circumstances, my life has really led me to figure out for me, at least as an individual, what’s most important. You know, I went through a period of and still am facing significant um pain through an illness, an autoimmune condition that I’ve had since I was 19 years old. So every day is uh a matter of pain. It’s just how much pain am I in? And so that led me, especially in the beginning of the relationship to my body through illness, to question whether or not I really wanted to be here with this level of pain. So I’ve had several difficult moments throughout my life where I’ve really wondered about would it be better to not live? And so that’s really pushed me to the edge to decide why am I living? If it’s gonna be hard and it’s gonna feel like this, then what am I living for? And at the end of that questioning, I really arrived at the answer relationships. I’m fed so deeply by my relationships with other people. And so through that sense of connection, through relating to others, I’ve found a lot of purpose, a lot of focus, a lot of meaning. And so through that journey, I’ve really wanted to help other people who realize for themselves that relationships really are one of the most important things determining their well-being in this life as a human being, how to navigate them in ways that feel more in alignment with their own principles and values, right? How to reduce conflict or at least transform conflict into something that creates more closeness and intimacy versus rupture and disconnection. So so much of my journey has really been focused and funneled through that clarity of why am I here? And the connection to the power of relationships and relating.
Because they’re they they crave peace in their home, especially with their spouses. Can you speak a little bit more about why conflict now is almost an invitation to connection to source?
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that’s hard for a lot of people is that we’re socialized into a paradigm or a mind frame or mindset around conflict that’s essentially adversarial. Right? This comes from our culture, our society, where criminal justice is really a tool to meter out punishment and retribution. That’s how we see crime as a society or how we respond to wrongdoing as a society. And so, because of the work that I’ve done in the field of restorative justice, I’ve been exposed to, thankfully, a new paradigm of how to approach and think about conflict, which is restorative.
Right?
And so through the field of restorative justice, I was exposed to a whole new narrative about what’s possible in terms of how to respond to and think about and approach conflict. And so while I was doing that in that field at an institutional level, there was sort of a suspicion that it could be done very effectively on an interpersonal level. And as I started to explore the field outside of the institutional setting of courts and schools and other large institutions, I started to think about well, who’s doing the restorative work at the level of family and intimate relationships. Didn’t really see anyone using that concept, and so I took it and brought it. And so I think this is one of the most profound things that the work offers is people reflecting on what’s your starting point for even how you think about conflict. And so, because it’s adversarial, most people are just conditioned to feel and experience conflict as something that’s rupturous, something that’s painful and destructive in their relationships. And so we’d rather not feel the pain, we’d not we’d rather not risk the rupture, we’d rather not risk the disconnection. A lot of what comes up for people in moments of conflict is a recreation of past dynamics where relational conflict with caregivers, parents, family, friends was really hurtful or even traumatic. And so a lot of people are carrying not just a social blueprint, but also a lived nervous system blueprint of the impact of conflict. And so it’s a big leap. It’s a big point of transformation and inner growth to start approaching it differently and recognizing that conflict can actually be this really positive and transformative influence in our lives. So I think this paradigmatic shift is really one of the major factors that makes it hard for people to lean into it.
I loved what you said, how you were able to, it almost sounds like transposing what you learned in restorative justice into the relationship paradigms that that you’re now working with that I’m sure you’ve shared in the book. And I’m I love that piece because you’re right, there are so many aspects of our life. This is how we come to the know that at least for me, what I have found in conflict. I’ve been to a lot of different seminars and I’ve learned that it’s an invitation to understand where those triggers are coming from. It’s an understanding of okay, this is a what did I hear from uh Michael Jr.? He’s a comedian, um, faith-based comedian, Christian. He comes out in all the uh Kendrick films and he has workshops available out there, and he said, conflict’s not the enemy, guys. Conflict is an invitation with God. He’s the one that’s going to provide you with those inner workings of your subconscious mind that initially, like you’re an adult, he sees everything and and your mind remembers everything. See, the subconscious mind remembers everything, but you don’t realize that when you’re navigating through these chapters. And so you just have a feeling and you react, and there you go. You have a result, right? A circumstance. But we all know that that’s not how this works. So I I love the work you’re doing, by the way. I’m really stoked about it. And I’m wondering if Jessica has anything to add because I’ve noticed that she’s her eyes are like twinklings, and I have an idea that she does want to chime into this topic.
Yeah, of course. And are you thinking of just the conflict topic or the topic in general of what we’re talking about?
You know, we are talking about these shadow pieces because we’ve opened up that conversation, not just in the relationship and conflict aspect, but I also want to know from your perspective, um, how it is that you did land in this space because you probably came at it from a different angle. And then I want to know how you guys all both kind of started collaborating one with the other, how you know each other. And this book was so successful.
Yeah. Well, for me, it was, you know, I was born into sort of a very unstable, tumultuous family environment. And it was very much a sink or swim. And a lot of what people would even call complex PTSD that came from my childhood. And then when I was out of college, I moved across the country and I was forging a life for myself. And I realized, oh, even though I don’t have these people in my life anymore, it’s still inside of me. And that was a huge wake-up of oh, these patterns, these ways of being defensive or shut down or afraid, right? Even though I’m no longer in the original environment, that environment has also been internalized. And so that really put me on the path of working through that and making like instead of just suffering from PTSD, making it into post-traumatic growth. And that became in many ways, sort of one of the missions of my life and purpose is to support people in that kind of healing, in that kind of resilience. Yeah. And so Dave and I actually met uh 23 plus years ago. We had both were East Coasters that went out to California to a healing modality school. And it was, you know, this both of us shifting, yeah, into wanting to do that kind of work. And we met and we later got married. We have a child together, we’re no longer married, but we are still, you know, deep, intimate family. And then we’ve been collaborating on projects for years, and this is actually our second book together.
I’m kind of loving this because usually, and that’s why I wanted to dive into the conflict piece because here’s the perfect opportunity to discuss it. You guys have a child together, you’ve been married, now divorced, but have collaborated on on not just one but two books, and we know books are a big collaboration. Yeah. Um, it does help the children when the parents do get along. I know that my first boy, the 20-year-old, comes from my first marriage, and there was a lot of conflict there when I started to date my second husband, and there was lawsuits and you know, you know, protection, not protective orders, but just different things that were coming at us, and and it was affecting the relationships uh not just between my ex-husband and I, but our son and our my new husband, and and I was already pregnant with our child, you know, and things like that, that it could have been a mess. But interestingly enough, when our daughter was born, we we always told our son, uh, first of all, he was our son, he wasn’t a stepson, he wasn’t a half anything. We don’t use those terms in this house. We said we’re brothers, we’re sisters, that we don’t, right? So that actually starts ask, you know, kind of inviting more relationship within the family unit. And our daughter was so little she didn’t understand like who this other man was, so she started to call him uncle. And then and then um and in family pictures, she would include her uncle that come and pick up her brother, and she couldn’t understand like why she couldn’t go with them. So the whole concept of divorce was like, Well, what is that, mom? And I said, Well, you know, we were once married, now we’re not, now I’m married to your dad, and but she was like three or four. So you you can imagine the explaining of this concept, but she actually was the connector of this animosity. And by the time Umbrus, my my firstborn, was graduating from high school, we had spent several um meals together with his dad. And when he graduated, my parents were in town, and we I texted my ex-husband and said, Hey, we’re gonna be sitting in this part of the arena, it was huge because there was like thousands and thousands of students graduating, and you’re welcome to sit with us, and we’re all going out to lunch. Would you like to come with us? And then that evening, it was our son’s birthday, he was turning 18, and he was invited into our home and had dinner with the entire family. It was just nice, you know. But so I’m really curious. Obviously, I can relate. Um, do you share with us how what steps did you guys take uh right after your divorce to kind of realize, you know, this is not something we want to carry into our new chapters?
Yeah. Do you want to take that, Dave?
Sure. You know, I love that. And I I really appreciate the the vulnerability and the the detail that you’re sharing about your own lived experience. That’s very meaningful for me. Um just appreciate that the platform can sustain and support that kind of intimacy between us right now. You know, right now we’re actually living together, so we live in the same home. And so I have an autonomous space in the lower level, and Jessica has her own space above, and our son kind of has a space above that, and he moves freely between those spaces. And right when we got divorced, there was a lot of intentionality. I think because we both do this kind of relational work, this kind of personal growth work, this kind of self-exploration, we had more skills, maybe, than other couples have. And so there was already a clarity around we don’t want this to be something that’s contentious and destructive. And yet it was still painful, even with all the intentionality that we had, there was still a lot of hurt, there was still a lot of pain. But one of the things we did do after officially getting divorced, or sort of being in the process of getting divorced, was we did a a conscious uncoupling ceremony. And so we went to uh a water source close to where we were living at the time, and we did a little ceremony where we undid our marriage vows and we honored what was good about our marriage and celebrated that and wanted to intend to keep that going moving forward, and then also wanting to let go of what didn’t work in the relationship. And so we burned little pieces of paper we had written those things we’re wanting to let go of, lit candles with the intention of becoming life partners. You know, we’re no longer married, but we’re seeing ourselves and setting the intention to continue to support each other professionally and as co-parents, and so we did life partner vows and then lit candles and sent those down the river. That was extremely meaningful. Um, and we spent a time where we weren’t living together, and that was good. My nervous system definitely needed that. I needed the space. And then after about a year and a half or so, we decided for the sake of our son that we actually wanted to be closer and in proximity, and we wanted to find a way to live together, and so we did, and that’s what we’ve been doing since, and it’s been phenomenal, it’s been really, really sweet. This is one of my favorite iterations of our 23 plus year relationship as life partner.
Jason, I really want to know your your perspective too on this because I’m dying to hear. I I loved Dave’s perspective on the ceremony, and then just realizing, you know, to give yourself those healthy boundaries of like right now, I do need space, I need to heal. Yes. It’s not I’m rejecting you, it’s not I’m rejecting anything, it’s that if I don’t heal this, it will hurt us, yeah. Kind of conversation. And I I love that you’re being very vulnerable, David, because I know that uh I mean, this is not something that’s very common in in in the world right now. What you see is a lot of division, you see a lot of destruction, uh, a lot of um zero connection between people. And I I love that you’ve taken this concept and taken it to a much higher level, kind of like you’ve leveled up in this in this space, right? So um thank you, David, for that. I’m I’m really honored to hear that. But I’d love to hear the the female perspective on it because as we know, biologically, we’re very different human beings. Otherwise, all these other books, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, would not have been sensational bestsellers, right? Um, there are huge differences in the way that men interpret conflict, interpret healing, interpret boundaries versus a female perspective. So, Jessica, please share with us how you processed the divorce.
Yeah, I mean, I agree. It was difficult. Um, and of course, now it’s, you know, looking back, I could say, but it was, it was definitely amicable, and that made all the difference. The the ceremony we did to release each other from our original vows and to take the time because you know, we put so much time into the creation of a marriage or a relationship, kind of onboarding that commitment, and then often there’s just this abrupt sever that doesn’t like give you know the time and space to offboard or shift. So it was really powerful for me that we released each other of those vows and then recommitted. And it felt like that recommitment to each other as humans and as parents and like life collaborators. Um it really kept me in in certain moments where in that year, year and a half apart, I might have wanted to back away further. Because we we shared this commitment, and that is powerful. But yeah, we did need the time apart and the coming back together. Um, well, I think this is what says it best. Literally, this morning at breakfast, talking to my son, who’s our son, who’s 11, but it was just me and him talking. We were talking about another family we know where there’s been a divorce, the kids are a little older and they’re really struggling, and the parents don’t have a great relationship. And he said to me, Yeah, you and dad getting divorced didn’t have a bad impact on me at all. I was like, Well, yeah, because your attachment wasn’t severed and you know, your your home stayed intact, and so he’s letting us know that the changes we’ve made were easeful for him, and that just feels like I couldn’t ask for anything more.
I love that. I really do, because you explained it to him in a way that that he would understand, right? Because they’re gonna see things in the world and they’re gonna have questions. Like, my daughter, like, what who’s this? Man, you know, like why is he coming to the house? And and he would bring our gifts. You know, my ex-husband was not. He was really uh kind towards our daughter and what made it even better. And I have to give kudos to my my husband, Donnie, he would invite him into the home. He never kept him outside. He would say, Hey, come on in, do you want a beer? Do you want to, you know, while we wait for us to get home from school, we’re welcome to come over. And it was because he had had that example shown to him with his parents. His parents, when they divorced, even though it was very disastrous when they did, it was it was not a good situation at all. The the person she eventually married was a childhood friend of theirs when they were kids. And so here was a different example. They were all very welcoming of each other, they had been friends, so the dynamic was very different. And so Donnie came with that um understanding and that compassionate uh approach. And I, if it weren’t for my husband, I think it would have stayed very hard to handle, right? Because there was a lot of discord there, right? So I love how you sat with your boy and you explained it to him, Jessica. Because I think people run from those conversations with their children because they don’t know what to say. But because but because you had lived it and you had, you know, studied it, and this is what you’ve been doing for the last 20 years, then it was something that came really natural to you to just say, you know what, different families are going to encounter these different things, but we know better. Your dad and I know better. I also think that the level of respect between you two is very um admirable. And respect is something, it’s a key ingredient. When you agree, even in conflict, you may not like each other, but as long as you respect each other, I think things move forward. What what are your uh opinion on that?
I completely agree. I think respect is often the missing ingredient, even in relationships that are active, like people that are still married to each other. There can be this missing piece of do you actually respect your partner and who they are and how they are in the world? And when that’s missing, we tend to then default to really crappy ways of communicating or treating each other in moments of conflict. So yeah, I think the piece of respecting each other and also respecting ourselves, of like, I’m not gonna let someone else turn me into someone that I don’t want to be. That’s a big piece of it too.
David, do you want to contribute to this conversation? Because there’s somebody nodding your head.
Yeah, absolutely. I’m just enjoying what’s being said. And one of the things that I’m thinking about in terms of respect is you know, respect is not something that is just assumed. And so the kind of respect that I advocate for is not just because I’m this or that, I deserve respect. You know, so the kind of posture that assumes respect is not something that I’m advocating for in relational dynamics, and it’s really something that’s based on behavior, right? The behavior I am in agreement in terms of my values or in alignment with your behavior. So the things that you do in terms of values, I can say, yes, that makes sense to me. I see why you’re doing what you’re doing, it feels coherent and therefore there’s respect. Right. Versus I think a lot of times you get into these really interesting conflictual dynamics where and I see it more often in men, to be frank, in the relational dynamics that are conflictual, at least in heterosexual relationships, where men often assume that they deserve respect. And I think they’re socialized to think that. And so I’m really wanting people to have a sense of No, you don’t just get respect, you have to earn it through coherence with values, behavior that’s driven by values that in essence are relational. Um, so I think that’s just a piece that I would add.
Um you know, a lot of what you’re talking about is actually in scripture, and I’m kind of going through the New Testament right now. Um, and there was a piece that was kind of coming to my awareness as you were speaking. And that piece is for all Christian households, and it’s somewhere in Ephesians, and it’s Paul writing to everyone, men and women included. So there was like it was everyone submit to one another. It’s not men, you know, women submit to men, and that’s it. It’s men, you submit to her, and she submits to you, and that’s how this is gonna work. You know, and so I find it interesting. The the alignment in what you’re saying is it’s been something that’s been spoken about and written about for 2,000 years, over 2,000 years. So it’s not concepts that are brand new, it’s concepts that have been around forever that have worked. It’s the way we’re created to be. We’re created to be in unity with one another. We’re created to be in team, like in unison collaborators. We’re not supposed to be one on top of the other, telling the other what to do and how to feel. It’s the woman is there to help the husband uh in various aspects, but they’re not in the hierarchy of how it’s set up even biblically, it the the man is not above the woman, it’s not in they’re equal under God Himself. So, and and we’re all under His authority. So it’s these are concepts that are are very important to highlight in this in this world right now, because of the level of division that we see out there. And I do speak to us more, um, either one of you, on the influences that people receive subconsciously uh that impact this relational um dynamic that you’re talking about.
Yeah, why not, if I may, just jump in just as an extension of the concept that you’re you’re putting forth right now, you know, we’re really looking at the work that we’re doing through specific frames or lenses. And one of the biggest is attachment theory. So we’re really focused on what does the nervous system do in response to the way that we’re treated in any given relationship. You know, our nervous systems are programmed to suss out or figure out whether or not in any given moment, right, we’re safe or feel threatened with another person. The other part of that is are we feeling connected or disconnected? And so if we feel connected, we feel safe. If we feel disconnected, we feel threatened. And that can be with someone with whom we have a profound and deep and long-lasting relationship, and it can happen like that. It can happen in a second where all of a sudden you feel disconnected and threatened, and things don’t feel safe, and your nervous system starts to get wonky because it doesn’t know how to respond. And so if we look at children and how they relate to their parents, there’s a lot of systems out there that would say it’s good for your children to be obedient, it’s good for your children to be afraid of you. And what we see is that obedient, fearful children actually have what we would call insecure attachments. And so wanting obedience, wanting to demand respect, wanting kids to do exactly what you think they should because you know best, what we see actually causes a lot of relational harm, especially at the level of attachment. And so we’re really in favor of behaviors that support secure attachment with children and caregivers, and then also with adult relationships. And so what we see actually is that the things that work for creating secure attachment in kids with their caregivers are the same things that work in adult relationships, and so therefore we’re advocating for those same things. And so respect is really again an outgrowth of care and mutuality, appreciation and empathy and curiosity, right? Really wanting to know what’s your lived experience and how can I support that. Right? So for me, the frame that we choose to look through is so critical in determining how we approach and think about the interventions that we make as professionals.
So, how do you reach that secure attachment? Can you give us some tips on what parents can do, uh, or even like divorced couples can do to form that secure attachment within that new family? Like let’s say if they’ve remarried and we can start forming those relationships that can further foster more community, more unity versus division.
Yeah, the secure attachment, you know, it’s ongoing and it’s cultivating things like presence, which isn’t just being in the same physical space, it’s actually the quality of your attention. So tuning into our children, giving them attention, um, attunement to them. So tuning into their needs and their feelings. This goes with our partners as well, you know, being emotionally engaged and available. And especially when you’re talking about divorce, and there might be more than one household or families that are blending, um, having some routine and ritual and some structure that the children can rely on and go, okay, I know this happens here. When I get to this house, we tend to do these things. I like to do these things, and there’s ritual and routine. And another big thing that um, you know, both of our work emphasizes is conflict is inevitable. There’s gonna be ruptures, right? There’s no such thing as perfect partners or perfect parenting 100% of the time. Um, but when there’s a rupture, we repair as quickly as we can.
What are good repairs? Because I read that term so much. I know Gosling writes so much about it in the Southern Habits of Highly Effective Marriages or something like that. Um, love that book, but I’d like to get some examples for those that have not read those books.
Right. I mean, I’ll let Dave time in in a moment. Um, he has a lot to say in repair and a whole process around repair, but often our best repair is simple and to the point, and really absent of trying to be right, being defensive. It’s really about dropping into our vulnerability and our humility. So a good repair is gonna say, I see that I did these things, they impacted you, reflecting back how the other was impacted, and genuinely coming to that apology. I’m sorry it went that way. I’m sorry I did that, I’m sorry I didn’t realize X, Y, and Z. And then how it’s gonna be different later. Like what were the takeaways and the lessons that next time I’m gonna make sure it’s this way or I’m gonna pay attention in an X, Y, and Z way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And so just to build on what she’s saying, you know, the there’s two facets of repair that are really important. And essentially it’s two sides of the same coin in terms of what are we doing in repair, what makes the biggest difference, and it’s really to simplify the way of thinking about it is how are we responding to emotional hurt? It’s the way that we respond to emotional hurt in a conflict that determines whether or not you really have a sense of an embodied sense, not an intellectual sense, but an embodied sense of repair. And so those two sides of that coin is one, how do I communicate my hurt when I feel hurt? So how do I say to you that I don’t like something that you did or didn’t do, or said something that I didn’t like, or wanted you to say something that you didn’t say? It’s how do I let you know that I feel hurt? Do I do it from a restorative perspective, a relational way, where I’m just trying to inform you so that you understand, as Jessica said, the impact of your behavior words? Or am I adversarial and trying to make you hurt because I feel hurt? Throwing in jabs, throwing in character attacks, right? Am I trying to create some kind of reciprocity around, negative reciprocity around I feel hurt, so I want you to feel hurt? That’s a big deal. So how we handle our own hurt and communicate it is key. The other side of that is how do we receive the feedback that we’ve hurt our partner or somebody else?
Right.
So both of these things are for the individual. How do I communicate my hurt and how do I receive feedback about the fact that my actions or words have had impact and created emotional hurt? Do I get defensive? Do I shut the other person down? Do I deny that what their experience was was valid or true? Right. And so this is really key. So if we can’t communicate in a way that’s restorative when we feel hurt, and if we can’t receive the message that we’ve hurt somebody else without getting defensive and take accountability for that impact, there is no repair.
And I know language is really critical here in the language we speak. The I statements are critical in repair versus your you did this, which is the accusatory, and that’s what gets people on the defensive. So can we maybe um do a role play for those listening? Would that be okay with y’all? Like let’s say I’ve had conflict with you, David, and uh and I need to um, or you’ve had conflict with me, how would you communicate to me where I wouldn’t get defensive? Can you role play that?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we can do is actually use the lived experience that’s relatively recent between Jessica and I. Right. And so recently, I so right now we’re sharing a car because my car’s in the shop. And so I’m just sort of in the habit of taking the car her car out to do things that we have a mutually agreed upon schedule, right? So we have our days where one of us is taking our son to school, and it’s either every day it’s either I’m either picking up or I’m dropping off, right? So it was one of these mornings where I was anticipating using the car, but I used it early outside of the window of the expected time frame, and so it conflicted with something that was on Jessica’s calendar, and I hadn’t checked in with her first about that. So she sent me a text while I was out with the car, and it was something important and relevant for the household. It wasn’t like I was just out doing shenanigans and being frivolous, and yet I hadn’t communicated so that it impacted her. So the way that she communicated was, hey, I’d really appreciate it if you’d let me know when you’re going to use the car, right, if it’s not on one of our pre-arranged schedule times. Right? So all she was doing was asking for me to stay in alignment with our agreement. She didn’t even say, You screwed me, I missed this appointment. Right? She didn’t say, I can’t believe you did this, you always do this, right? There was no character assassination, there was no sort of reference to the past or how I always do this or never do that, no superlative language. It was just, can you honor the agreement that we’ve made and be aware that things that fall outside of that could have an impact. In the past, to be honest, there’s been moments where she could have sent a text like that and I would have gotten defensive. And what I would have jumped to probably predictably would have been, well, I’m using it for something that’s productive, I’m not doing anything wrong. Right. And that’s where shame comes in, right? It’s like, oh, I’m getting feedback about the impact on my behavior. And what I jumped to is I’m doing something wrong. I’m getting scolded, quote unquote, by my partner. Now it’s feeling like my mom. I’m all of a sudden in a parent child dynamic. How I responded now, because I’ve got the wisdom of years of experience, is I immediately said, 100% right. I wasn’t thinking. I hope I didn’t mess up your morning, and I will absolutely be more mindful of letting you know or checking in about taking the car outside of these pre-arranged, agreed time slots. And she’s like, Great, thanks. And that’s it, it’s done. You know, and I asked her when I got home, I said, Is there anything else you need? Is there anything else you need from me around that? I’m sorry about that. Thanks for letting me know. Is there anything else you need around repair? She’s like, No, that’s great, I just needed to let you know.
Yeah, she was she was instilling a healthy boundary. That’s what a healthy boundary looks like and sounds like. 100%. And people oftentimes they don’t wanna, they’re people pleasers, they don’t wanna create conflict, right? If I say this, it’s gonna create conflict. Well, it will create conflict if you use you statements and character assassinations, absolutely. But if you’re just hey, um, I level arrangement, just let me know when you go outside of it, you know, something like that. Um, but I love how you were able to give perspective in a real life um scenario for people listening, because oftentimes you you read it in books, but then they don’t share examples. And it can, and because of your lens, if you’re if your lens is coming from a wounded space, like years ago for you, David, then it’s not gonna land in the way that the authors intended.
That’s right.
For that information to land. So that’s why I’m always like in my coaching practice tell people, you gotta heal these things. You cannot leave, especially once you become aware of them. You know that there’s certain things that you need to work on. And and if you’ve been made aware of it by whatever source you believe in, then it’s time to get, you know, roll up your sleeves and get to work and and move past it, because otherwise you’ll be in this cyclical thing that’s gonna cause you even more pain. Yeah, over time.
I wasn’t saying about that because one of the things that wasn’t possible, unfortunately, in our marriage of 10 years was for me to really hold space for Jessica’s anger. And it was interesting because as we were coming to the end of the relationship from the marriage perspective, there was an incident that I’ll never forget where she was really, really upset and she started throwing some of my plants against the wall. And I was getting so dysregulated and so afraid. And it would be easy on one level to say, Well, that’s really violent behavior, that’s really upsetting, that shouldn’t be happening. And yet it was interesting because as I was trying to just calm her down, she was saying, You never let me be angry. I can’t just be angry. I can’t just have my feelings. And I thought about it, it really shook me, it stopped me, and I was like, Is that true? And it wasn’t until actually that we got divorced and kind of unraveled our attachment at that level, and I did a lot of interpersonal, intra-personal work rather, that I started looking at what is this? So I realized that that was a big dynamic with my mother, you know, and so my mother’s anger was really overwhelming and scary, and so it felt like something that I had to shut down. And so I realized that I was recreating that dynamic in my relationship, attachment-based relationship with Jessica. I was basically treating her like my mother. If she got angry, oh my mother’s angry subconsciously, and I have to stop it. I have to stop that anger because it’s too destabilizing, it’s too scary. And so it’s interesting to recognize that. And now through the work, it’s like I have no problem with Jessica being angry, and often she’ll get angry with me, and I can just say it makes sense that you’re angry. I get it.
Is it an anxious attachment? I’m curious. Absolutely. Okay, because I think I suffer from the anxious attachment because my father was always angry, and I’m the one that stops the anger from my husband. He wants to just express his anger, and I get so scared with anger that I might uh and my anxious child comes out.
That’s right.
That is from a traumatic event with my father, who lost it during a vacation, um, and blamed me for my sister’s near death. And it just it it messed with me subconsciously. Um, something I I detail in the first chapter of In Faith I Thrive, Finding Joy Through God’s Master Plan, which is my best-selling book. And I dive very deeply into patterns of behavior that formed immediately after that trauma. Uh, but now I’m learning a lot more about anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, and secure attachment, um, being a life coach through my church. And um, so as you were detailing this situation, I’m glad you got into this. Immediately, what was going through my mind was like, you must have an anxious attachment.
Yeah.
Or had an anxious attachment. Because once can you um completely I wouldn’t say cure that, but move it up to a secure attachment?
How kind of work is that? You absolutely can. Yeah, you can have insecure attachment, whether it’s More avoidant or anxious, and it can become more of a secure. It’s called earn secure attachment through doing healing the parts of you that went through those traumas and experiences, the parts that tend to grasp or want to stop certain experiences as an adult. Yeah, it’s possible. I think I really want to point out though that both of you aren’t probably weren’t actually talking about your parents’ anger as a pure feeling they were having. Usually we say, Oh, it’s my parents were angry, but with that anger, there was crossing the line of lashing out, blaming, shaming, mischaracterization, doing scary things. That’s not anger in its pure expression. That’s usually crossing the line into aggression, you know, even emotional or physical violence, right? Or mistreatment. And so, right, as a many of us didn’t have that experience of adults modeling. I’m just angry and I’m just stating it. And maybe I’m more charged, but I’m still safe.
Okay.
Yeah. So then, yeah, we see any glimmer of someone that feels more charged, activated, or angry, and it’s terri it is terrifying. Yeah.
But it’s it’s up to us. They they denied to actually fix that or heal that, because fixing it sounds weird. But healing that that anxious attachment, because neither you nor Donnie have anything to do with that.
Yes, and if Donnie, if Donnie is truly just saying, honey, I am so pissed that you said you would do this and you didn’t. If he’s right, if it’s truly just I’m angry, right? Yes, then it’s more the other person’s ability and capacity to just hold when someone else is angry. But usually it’s not given and delivered in that way. It has that lashing out or blaming or shaming to it that’s gonna put you on the defense. And now you’re both not safe.
And that’s what he describes in the book as the four horsemen, right? That can lead to divorce. Yes. Yeah. But blaming, shaming, um offensiveness, defectiveness, contempt, character assassinations, all these things are things that will immediately put someone on.
And most people say, I’m just sharing my feelings. And often in sessions, Dave and I will go, I actually didn’t hear one true expression of a feeling. I just heard you, you know, shaming and blaming all over your partner. Let’s backtrack, you know, what’s your actual feeling experience? Tell us about the hurt you’re going through.
And that sounds like an avoidant attachment. Is that correct?
Yeah, it can be either in that case, but yes, often people that are more in the avoidant think they’re expressing legitimate feelings and needs, and they aren’t actually.
Okay. I got it. Oh my gosh, we haven’t backed so much. I don’t know about y’all, but I I feel like I’ve learned a great deal about what your book was about. And I myself am going to be purchasing it because I do want to learn more about the attachments. And I’m assuming that was in this book.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, there is, there’s, there’s, we’re focused on, you know, a facet of the book is focused on attachment. Um, but really this book is is directed most specifically towards shame and how to work with shame and the parts of us that are responsible for really making shame complex and challenging and how to turn that into an inner ally. Right. And so it’s really about the process of transforming what we’re calling the shame triangle into the self-love triangle. So attachment is part of that framework or that matrix, um, but it’s in the context of talking about shame specifically.
Yeah, attachment in terms of how we reparent our inner parts that are critical, that are holding shame, or that tend to overfunction or avoid.
Lots of information. That’s right. I’m just so excited for both of you and for your collaborations and for your coupling. You know, your arrangement with your son, your son is such a lucky boy to have both parents that are willing and able, you know, emotionally to step into this space and create an atmosphere of love. Uh, so that you are, in essence, uh, raising a happy, well-adjusted adult. And that’s what we’re after when we parent our children. So, any last words of encouragement for the listeners of release out reveal purpose?
I think really just find in terms of what’s most important to you, you know, where do relationships fall in that spectrum? You know, do you have relation, relational consciousness, relational awareness as something that’s uh a compass or a guide, you know, and what are the things that you can still learn? You know, just sort of take a lifelong learning approach to staying open to new things, you know, leading with empathy and curiosity. You know, how do we make relationships more of a central priority in a way that’s building more connection versus disconnection? You know, so just really wanting to encourage people to stay focused on the power and importance of relationships in their lives. Jessica, do you want to add to that?
Yeah, just that this inner constellation of parts that we’re calling the shame triangle, it really can eclipse us from being in deeper and higher connection with deeper connection with ourself, higher connection with spirit, God, the universe, whatever we call it. And doing this work allows those things like being more connected to love and compassion and source. It brings it more available.
Love it. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been such a pleasure and honor to um have this collaborative discussion around these very important subjects that I know will lead to a lot of healing to people that will likely get your book because we’ll be intrigued to learn more about these dynamics and um and about your own stories, you know, from your past and and present. So thank you so much for joining us. And for those listening, if you do want to purchase a book, Transforming the Chain Triangle, um, that was released in October of last year, head on over to Amazon or any major retailer out there, you’ll be able to access it. Uh, the authors are Jessica Friend and David Cooley. Thank you so much. Uh, once again, and for the listeners, remember Matthew 5.14, to be the light, step into your light. Don’t be afraid. There’s reasons why we go through all the things that we go through in life, and it’s leading us in the path of our divine purpose. And we are there to step into it fully because that’s what we were created to do. And look at David and Jessica, look how beautiful of a light they carry within them, and what their light is currently doing out in the world to create more unity, more community, and more um love out in the world. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a wonderful week. Stay safe. Love y’all. Bye now.
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