Overthinking can feel like problem-solving, but when your mind is stuck in worry, rumination, and endless “what if” loops, it stops being helpful and starts stealing your life. We sit down with clinical psychologists Shang Olsen and Michelle Linhardt, both Level Two trained in metacognitive therapy (MCT), to explain a radically practical shift: you don’t control which thoughts show up, but you can learn to control how you respond to them.
We dig into what makes metacognitive therapy different from more content-focused approaches like traditional CBT. Rather than debating whether a thought is true, MCT targets the process that keeps anxiety going and the beliefs that fuel it such as “worry helps me cope” and “I can’t stop worrying.” Shang and Michelle share how this framework applies to common struggles like self-worth spirals, decision paralysis, anxiety disorders, and OCD patterns including reassurance seeking, threat monitoring, avoidance, and rituals.
You’ll also hear a concrete tool you can try right away: postponing rumination by scheduling a brief daily “worry time,” so your day isn’t hijacked every time a scary thought appears. We also talk about why proper training matters, how MCT has decades of research behind it, and how listeners can find certified providers internationally through mct-institute.co.uk, including options for online therapy.
If you want a calmer mind and a more relaxed relationship with your thoughts, subscribe, share this with someone who lives in their head, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
To connect with Shang or Michelle visit https://mct-institute.co.uk/mct-registered-therapists/ or to this site: https://kognitivpsykologpraksis.dk/terapi/therapy-english-anxiety-depressive-feelings-and-obsessive-compulsive-disorder
To download a free chapter of host Sylvia Worsham’s bestselling book, In Faith, I Thrive: Finding Joy Through God’s Masterplan, purchase any of her products, or book a call with her, visit her website at www.sylviaworsham.com
Transcript:
This is my if you’ve ever struggled with fear, doubt, or worry, and wondering what your true purpose was all about, then this podcast is for you. In this show, your host, Sylvia Warsham, will interview elite experts and ordinary people that have created extraordinary lives. So here’s your host, Sylvia Warsham.
I’ve still got a lot of fun left in me.
Hey Lightbringers, it’s Sylvia Warsham. Welcome to Release Out Reveal Purpose. And today is Shang Olsen and Michelle Linhart. And they’re both clinical psychologists and work as therapists. They have level two training in what they call metacognitive therapy, and they’re on the board there in Copenhagen. And so we are just thrilled to have them both come on the show and talk about rumination of thoughts, of overthinking, of anxiety. These topics are very commonplace now in our world because of the advent of social media. Kids are online, they are reading everything that’s happening in the world. When I was a kid, we didn’t have that. We didn’t have these issues. You know, we had anxiety, they just never talked about it. And but we didn’t get into all these wars and all these scenarios, and we didn’t discuss it actively in school. And the issues that we’re now seeing in young people is that anxiety is climbing. This rumination, overthinking occurs so much more frequently now. We have even adults, you know, the parents of these children that are overthinkers themselves, that unfortunately don’t realize how they’re projecting this onto their children. And then their children are receiving this way of being and this way of thinking and thinking it’s normal because that’s what happens with the subconscious mind. There’s no filter. So it’s information it uses. And unfortunately, these children grow up seeing these patterns of behaving as normal. And as a certified life coach myself, I coach a lot of people who I’ve encountered in my coaching practice that I mean, you see them and they go from one thought to the other to the other, and you see this culmination. And I’m curious to know why Shang and Michelle both work now in this arena. There must be a reason, ladies. So whoever wants to go first, please take the stage. Shang, if you want to go first and just kind of share with us why this topic is so important to you.
Um, well, you probably have guessed this right, but I used to suffer from a lot of overthinking myself. I used to do that a lot, and I thought that was the way to deal with things. And I even didn’t even question that I was doing that. So um at some point, uh after working with clients myself as an adult, and then later being introduced to this type of therapy that we’re going to go into more today, I realized maybe this is not the way to go about things. This is not the way to deal with problems in life. And I tried a different way to deal with my thoughts rather than ruminate about them. And personally and professionally, I found this incredibly rewarding, incredibly life-changing. So that’s why I went into this.
And what about you, Michelle?
So my story is very similar to Shang’s because I used to be an overthinker myself. I used to ruminate a lot, especially when I was younger, primarily when I was a teenager, about self-worth, not being good enough. And I’m pretty sure your audience will recognize that as well. Uh, no matter the age, uh, I used to overthink so much. And just like Shang mentioned, I think at some point I also believed that was the way to solve problems. I even remember describing myself as yeah, an overthinker or someone who was very analytical. And I really thought it was necessary to spend a lot of time in my head trying to solve things. But yeah, it was very rare at least that I felt any better doing that. And then when I encounter this kind of therapy that I work with today and that I’m specialized in, I just found it life-changing, not just for me, but also for the clients that I work with. And I find it so meaningful to see, and I see this every day, like how much of a difference it makes for people, whether it’s someone who’s struggling with an anxiety disorder or someone who’s just struggling with overthinking in general. It makes such a difference. And I think learning to have a more relaxed relationship with your thoughts is such a game changer. So that’s why I got into this and why I’m so passionate about this topic.
I’m so grateful that both of you are on the show today. As I mentioned before we even started the interview, for those listening on the other side, this is near and dear to my heart because, like Shane, like Michelle, I am or was an overthinker, where it just took over. And it’s exhausting, really. It’s quite exhausting. And we don’t know as parents, we don’t start off wanting to hurt our children. We don’t realize that this is part of our biological makeup. And unfortunately, I projected this onto my two children, and I see them doing this a lot more frequently. In fact, in 2020, it got worse for me to the point where I just felt that it was time for me to get therapy, to get into meditation, which I found was what stopped the rumination of the thoughts. And I’m really curious for you both to get into this metacognitive therapy that you’re so passionate about that you are now highly trained in. Level two is the highest level of training you could receive in this type of therapy. Please, um, Michelle, let’s start with you now. Uh, tell
us a little bit more about this metacognitive therapy. Why is this so critical to have uh for this type, these types of disorders? And what disorders do they address?
Certainly. So a lot of the therapies we know of today, the more classical approaches, they work with what we call content level. So usually what you will do is you will zoom in on the content of thoughts. So you would challenge content of thoughts. And you can see if you’re someone who has a tendency to overthink. So if you worry, which is more future-oriented, and I think we all know that. So that can be if you start to think a lot of what-if scenarios uh when you ruminate, that’s typically when you dwell on things or you think of things that have happened in the past. Typically, when we look at the more classical, traditional uh therapeutic approaches, what they would do would be to go into the content of the thoughts. So let’s say if you would be a client of mine, Sylvia, you would come into therapy and I would work with one of these approaches, I would probably question, like, why do you think that way? Could you try to think more positively? Or is there another way to view that scenario? And although that may sound really helpful, you can imagine if you’re someone who has a tendency to overthink, if you’re sitting there with your therapist and questioning your thoughts, oftentimes what happens is that then you actually sit and you start to what we would call co-ruminate with your therapist, or you start to question your thoughts even more. And what we see at least a lot in therapy, and what we can also see with research is that the more we go into our thoughts, the more we analyze them, the more we worry, the more we ruminate, the more, the more often we feel stuck. So, what is different with the type of therapy that we work with is that we don’t work on what we call the content level, but we work with what we call a meta-level, which means that we work from above. So instead of questioning the content of thoughts, we question the relationship we have with our thoughts. So, how we relate to our thoughts. So instead of going into why do you think like that, or are you sure you’re a bad person? Could you view it a different way? We would instead look at well, how much time do you spend ruminating about things you’ve done in the past, or how much time do you spend worrying about things that can happen in the future? And we would try to help the person reduce the amount of time spent on that and teaching them more helpful and adaptive coping strategies to learn to let go of all this overthinking. And in my experience, when people learn that, it it just brings so much relief and also a sense of control. Because I think what really happens, especially in the world we live in now, is as you said as well, like obviously we are just bombarded with bad news all the time. So inevitably we will feel triggered to worry, to ruminate, and it can feel like we don’t have a choice. But I think what most people don’t know is we actually do have a choice. We do not we don’t have a choice or a say in what thoughts enter our mind, but we actually have a choice in how we engage with them. So that’s really the the core of what we do. And then we also zoom in on some of the beliefs we hold about our thinking. And we can go more into this later, perhaps, but oftentimes it can be that we also believe it’s very useful to ruminate, that it’s useful to worry. Well, then it makes sense if you believe that, then you’re gonna do it even more, or perhaps you believe that you can’t control your worry or your rumination, and inevitably then you will continue to do so. And in my experience, working with this kind of therapy can be really transformative. Like I said, it’s been transformative for me, but I’ve worked with so many clients throughout the past many years, and I see it on a daily basis, like how life-changing that is and how empowering it is. And to me, that’s just so meaningful.
Thank you for that amazing explanation, you know, because when you go above the content and you go to the relationship of the thought, that made perfect sense to me. And I can see why it would be a very different approach, let’s say, from basic cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Which is, I think, where we’re doing like the comparison. Um, Shang, if you could, because Michelle mentioned something that I’m really curious about, uh, maybe you can expand on this.
What are those coping strategies that this type of therapy introduces?
Well, let’s go through an example. If um, this is something I often see. Someone comes in to therapy saying that, well, I am so, I feel so insecure about myself. Um, I have all these thoughts about not being good enough. What if I’m found out? What if I fail? I’m an imposture, all these things. Um, so traditional cognitive behavioral therapy, as Michelle also mentioned, would go into this content of the thought and we would discuss back and forth what is the evidence for you not being good enough? What do you what is the evidence against that? What would you say to a friend who thought this way? So you kind of go into the content level and argue back and forth in order to help this client see uh see themselves in a new perspective, adopt a different belief about themselves that they can go on and then practice uh holding on to. In metacognitive therapy, some of these strategies we work with is more like, well, it sounds like this thought is very important to you, you thinking that you’re not good enough. Um, is that a fact? The fact that you have this thought, is that a fact, or is it just a thought in your mind? Well, how much time do you spend thinking about this thought? How much have you been ruminating about this thought? And how did that make you feel? If you spent five hours ruminating about this thought on a daily basis and compare yourself with your peers, uh, how does that make you feel? Well, if it makes you feel sad and depressed and insecure, would it make sense to just let that be? Would it make sense to postpone thinking about this thought? And then we would um do different experiments and uh send them off away from therapy with um with the experiment of postponing dealing with this thought until later in the day. So could you postpone every time this thought pops up in your mind? Can you choose not to dwell on it? Can you choose not to ruminate about it? And then do that later in your rumination time, which is 15 minutes later in the day. And then people will come back saying, oh my God, that was so helpful. It was so relieving not to have to do that all day, not to have to think about it all day.
That makes sense. That does make sense. I’m just curious, like on, and maybe Michelle, you can like pop in here. Can you share with us uh a case? We don’t need to know names because we know ethically we can’t do that on the show, but just kind of give the parameters of the case of this individual was ruminating this many hours and how these therapies then was able to take that person from the beginning part of the therapy and and and kind of share with us also how long this therapy took for them to get from point A to point B, if you could, Michelle.
Definitely.
So I think uh, I mean, there are many examples that I could share, but going off on what Shang said, I think that’s a very typical example I see in therapy as well. So I work a lot with clients who struggle with OCD and different times of anxiety, but something I also work a lot with is people struggling with decision making, just overthinking in general. Perhaps they don’t have a specific diagnosis, but they have a tendency to ruminate all the time or to worry all the time, uh, doubting themselves. And uh an example that pops into my mind and something I see quite often is exactly that. Like, for instance, a client who will come into therapy and say, Well, I feel like I’m not good enough, and I don’t understand why that is. And then perhaps the person, like Chang said, through this questioning, we would try to uncover, well, how much time do you spend rumining ruminating about your self-worth, not feeling good enough? And perhaps we will discover this person spends the majority of their day ruminating, like questioning themselves, why they’re not good enough, comparing themselves to their peers. Um, it could also be front monitoring, it can be worrying about the future, what that would look like if they will always feel this way. What I think is very uh transformational when we work with this kind of therapies when oftentimes when we just question that, like how much time do you spend ruminating? Already that makes people aware that, whoa, I actually spend so much time in my head. Because I think most of the time we don’t even question that. We think we have to, or we think that, well, we can’t stop it again. Then that’s the only way to solve our issues. And I think a lot of it is perhaps also subtle messaging for society that we’re told that we we have to think, we have to analyze, we have to question everything. But oftentimes just that, like questioning, well, how much time do you spend? That prompts something in people’s minds. They will start thinking, well, yeah, okay, maybe I spend eight hours, 10 hours every day questioning myself, my my own worth, like if I’m good enough. Um, and a concrete example that just comes into mind, I remember someone I saw a few years ago who had actually been in cognitive behavioral therapy for I think it was three years or so, um, and been trying to go over like her insecurities with her therapist. And every time that worked on what you in traditional CBT would call a core belief. So it could be not being good enough or something else, then a new thought would enter her mind. And then it would have to start over and they would work with that again. And at some point she just started to feel really hopeless because she had been in therapy for years and she still felt insecure. And then she came to therapy and she was like, Okay, I need to try something different. Uh, I want a completely different approach. I feel like I want to give up because I’ve tried everything at this point. But okay, let’s just give it a go. And what I found so transformational was I think within five sessions, she she came back and told me I’ve gained more from five sessions than I’ve gained from three years of therapy with my former therapist. And that’s not to say anything bad about the former therapist. Perhaps again, it was just not the right fit in terms of the therapy. And as I always say to my clients, you should always find what works for you and what is a great match for you. But I just found that so transformational to see that just by questioning these mechanisms, showing her that she had a choice, not in what popped into her mind, but in how she engaged with her thoughts, that made all the difference in the world. And that was through like just questioning it. So through like different what we would call therapy Socratic techniques, but also like Shang said, it could be through experiments learning to postpone the rumination to a set time. Because oftentimes the issue is when we feel triggered by something, we feel like we need to solve it right now. So perhaps we all know that example, if we suddenly feel really insecure and we think about not being good enough, we start to analyze, we start to ruminate, and we feel like we need to get to the root cause of it or to the bottom of it right now. But most of the time when we do that, we’ll just end up stuck in this loop, in this negative spiral, and it’s really difficult to get out of. But for instance, with this person, like by learning to postpone ruminating and setting off a set time. So it could be, let’s say, from five in the afternoon to five 15, saying, okay, every time this thought enters my mind, I’m just gonna tell myself it’s okay, it’s there, but I’m not gonna engage with it until five o’clock. I’m just gonna continue my day and then I can pick it up again at five, is I if I deem that it’s still necessary. And what she discovered was that oftentimes she would have forgotten what it was, or at the time when she got to that point to her said rumination time, she didn’t feel that it made sense to sit down and ruminate because she was doing something else, or she was in a more rational mindset. And then she realized, well, it’s actually not really helping me to spend all this time in my head. So through different kinds of questioning techniques and doing different kinds of experiments, so these are just some examples, we were able to make such a big change for her just within a few amounts of sessions. And this is something I see over and over again, and I’m pretty sure Shang does as well. Um, but and something I find so transformational about this kind of therapy. Of course, it depends on the person. And as you also said, Celia, like sometimes it can be things that really has been rooted since childhood, you know, like habits we’ve adopted throughout the years. But I see it time and time again that oftentimes it doesn’t take that many sessions. So we’re not talking about years of therapy. Often even within less than 10 sessions, you can gain so much and it creates so much change. And I find that so meaningful.
Well, that actually makes me breathe a sigh of relief because it is something that I was wondering about. Because we know that cognitive behavioral therapy can take several sessions, depending on the level of trauma that that individual walks in with, right? Because not every case is the same. And you did mention, Michelle, and maybe Shane, you can pipe in here and explain further, on the relationship or perhaps the overlap of beliefs, like what exactly is is promoting this rumination uh in your practice? What have you found to be true? Uh, and is there any overlap in the cognitive behavioral therapy patients?
Would you like me to go or yeah, go ahead? You want to go, Michelle? No, no, no. You can go no, go ahead, please.
I think uh so so one of the beliefs we talk about metacognitive beliefs, which simply speaking is believes us. So it’s thinking about thinking. So it’s beliefs about how our thinking works, what thoughts are, uh, what our minds are capable of. So metacognitive beliefs. And one common metacognitive belief that um makes us ruminate, makes Start ruminating about our thoughts is this one that it’s helpful to ruminate about my thoughts. If I ruminate and analyze my thoughts, then I’ll find answers, then I’ll be able to solve this problem, and then I can move on with life. Or with worrying, it is if I worry about all the things that might go wrong, then I’m prepared, then I’ll know what to do if it happens, or I might even worry so much so that I can prevent this catastrophe from happening. So these beliefs reinforce us, reinforces rumination and worry because we inherently believe that there are helpful ways to deal with problems. So that’s one thing, but it’s okay to hold these beliefs because if you ask around in society amongst your friends and peers, you would probably find that a lot of people hold this belief to some degree. I think most people would agree that it’s okay to worry sometimes. It’s okay to ruminate sometimes. The problem is, however, if you simultaneously also believe that you no longer can control worry and rumination. So oh, I keep spinning, all these thoughts are there in my mind. I cannot stop worrying about them. I feel so tense and anxious, I cannot fall asleep, I cannot stop doing my rituals, um, I cannot stop thinking about how not good enough I am. This belief that I cannot control worry and rumination, well, that makes us stay in this loop of worry and rumination. Obviously, if we don’t believe that we can stop, we’re just gonna continue doing more of the same thing. Or we might turn to other unhelpful ways to cope in order to stop worrying and rumination. In OCD, that would be to start start doing rituals, um, or seeking excessive reassurance, or um eating comfort, so comfort eating or drinking, or um what else could it be, Michelle? There are so many coping strategies we would relate to.
There are so many coping strategies. It could also be avoiding things that make you that trigger you, that makes you feel uncomfortable. There are so many different coping strategies, but I think like those income past, like the the larger ones, definitely reassurance seeking, fret monitoring, avoiding things, like looking for other ways to cope. Like you said, it can be with different substances, alcohol, and so on.
Right. And constantly scanning for dangers. So so those two beliefs are mainly the ones that make us continue worrying ruminate. Um, yeah.
That actually clarifies quite a bit for me. I was just I was just curious, like what was because we know in cognitive behavioral therapy at times it could be the I’m not enough unless. And then we and it’s this constant cycle. I don’t know that it needs leads to overthinking, but it certainly leads to over worrying and overdoing, as opposed to just pausing and stepping back and then showing the evidence on on how that lie is true, right? Because we call them lies in coaching. Um, in cognitive behavioral therapy, they can also call them lies of what the mind is thinking or believing um to be true, right? When we know that that’s not the case. Um, I think we’ve covered quite a
bit. I don’t know how much your work, you said you were on the board. Do you guys have a book together or how did you two start working together? I’m curious.
So we used to work together at the same clinical practice uh a few years ago, and then uh we we always meet every now and then, and now we sit on the board together uh for the MCT Institute in Denmark because we’re so passionate about metacognitive therapy, and we want to ensure that it’s practiced properly because it is an evidence-based therapy with a lot of research behind it. And unfortunately, there are a lot of practitioners out there claiming that they do metacognitive therapy, but it requires a lot of training. So, as you said as well, like we have a level two training, which is a specialized training that takes three years. So, first you have to do a basic training for two years, and then you can do an advanced applications of that uh for one year later. And and we’ve completed that, we just feel very passionate about it. So we don’t work together directly in um in uh our uh just in our routine daily life, but uh we we often meet every now and then and and work on different projects, such as like the uh institute here that we help each other with.
We have a supervision group as well.
And how long ago, because I’ve never heard of metacognitive therapy, is that a fairly new uh therapy, or how long has it been out in in the world? And how, you know, how can one find these types of therapies, let’s say in the United States? Like what are we looking for? Do we need to see that they have the level two? What does the level one cover? You said there was a G.
Sorry. Um, so so um it’s an excellent question because it’s the research behind MCT is not that new. It’s uh it has more than 30 years of research behind it. But compared to CBTE, cognitive behavioral therapy, then yes, it’s relatively new. I think uh you must correct me, Michelle, if I’m wrong, but I think uh it’s only become popular in Scandinavia in the past six years, I think. Maybe a bit longer than that. Something like that.
It’s a bit less than 10 years, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have I have clients from the US and Canada, and they do ask me this question. So, how can I find someone who’s certified in the US? And currently I know there are some US therapists that are undergoing the training in MCT, but for now, right now, there aren’t any certified MCT therapists in the US, unfortunately. Um, but I believe that this is uh gonna become huge. Um uh and I think a lot of people will benefit from it. So, where people can look to is go to uh uh Mct Institute K U UK. Yeah, so Mct Institute Co UK uh and find a list of therapied uh certified therapists uh around the world.
Can you repeat that again? It’s MCT Institute K-U. Yes.uk. I’m gonna type that here.
UK, yeah, and yeah, and that way we can, and even though we’re in the United States, you guys can treat us. That’s yeah, that’s okay. Okay, we’re allowed to do that, yeah. Because let’s and and the reason why I asked that is that our therapists here in the states, if they’re not certified in the same state that you’re currently traveling to here in the United States, they cannot treat you.
We’ve heard yes, yeah, we’ve heard, but it’s not the same here in Scandinavia, so I think we both have quite a lot of international clients, both that we see in person, at least I do, like people who live in Copenhagen and come from abroad. I have clients from all over the world, but throughout the years, I’ve also had a lot of clients from the US and from Canada as well. And as Shang said, I think the issue is at the current moment, to my knowledge, I think there is one certified therapist in Canada. I’m not sure if she still lives in Canada, but I think there is one uh Canadian um licensed metacognotherapist. And I remember back when I did my training, uh the level one training, which is like the the basic training you do for two years before you can do the specialized training. I remember there being, I think, one American uh therapist. I don’t know if he finished a training, uh, I haven’t seen him on the website, but it it could be. But like Shang said, I also believe that it’s it’s up and coming. Like there will be in a few years, hopefully a lot more certified therapists. But if any of your listeners are interested in doing metacognitive therapy or learning more about it, I would really recommend them to go to that website. And most therapists, even if they’re not located in the US, they will be able to offer quality evidence-based metacognitive therapy online.
Wow. Okay, that’s that’s interesting. That’s I’m glad I asked that question because it’s like, okay, well, where as because I had never ever heard of it. And someone like me would have needed to know that information because of the anxiety that runs in my family, and then the link to OCD that not just I have, but my children have. And what I’ve seen, how it just promotes itself in a way that can really exhaust someone, not just mentally, spiritually, physically, it’s exhausting to do that to oneself. So I’m so grateful that I had the opportunity to have both of you on the show today to give people out there some hope that they can go online and can find um either one of you and have the opportunity to be, you know, given this therapy over time so that they can start living a better life, a life free from this rumination, free from the overthinking pieces that just disrupt their really disrupt their lives in a way that sometimes they can’t even function throughout the day. So I I want to just what a blessing. I’m so so grateful for PodMatch right now in in so many ways. Let me just do that because of yesterday’s phone call that I didn’t know where I was gonna turn to. Um so that is a relief. Um, I I will definitely be in touch with both of you later on after this airs. And for any last words of encouragement that either one of you or both of you want to share on the show, and how can people contact you if they want to work with you?
So, Shang, want to start?
Um well, well, just as you mentioned, Sylvia, there is absolutely hope, and this is something that can be dealt with because what we found is that the things that we’re doing, the rumination and the worrying, is not something that just happens to us, it’s something that we’re actively doing. And there are ways we can learn to stop these things effectively and take back control, so good control, healthy control. So there’s absolutely hope, and there’s absolutely something that can be done about this uh mental constant chatter. And um, we both have websites with some free resources you can go and check out. Uh, we write about these things in English and we write posts, and uh, I’m sure Michelle is uh doing a newsletter uh soon.
I’m not doing a newsletter, uh, but it’s true. I’m uh currently I’m about to launch a new website. That’s right. But uh else, yes, you can definitely find us and else also on the MCT Institute website because there’s our contact information if you’re curious to learn more. Um and else also just something I wanted to say is for just for your listeners, just know that it is possible to change the relationship you have with your thoughts and also just know that even if you have like negative thoughts, difficult thoughts, you are not your thoughts, they’re just thoughts. We cannot decide which thoughts enter our minds, but we can decide what we do with them. And that makes such a big difference. And at least something I experience in my daily work is just seeing how empowering that can be. And I know you’ve also experienced that a lot, Chang, and I think that’s just such a gift. So uh yeah.
Well, thank you, ladies, for being on the show today. It has been an eye-opener uh to understand this level of therapy. And I do, I am praying that this therapy reaches the United States faster than can be possible. I’m I’m hoping therapists out there will hear it. I will be sending this interview to therapists uh in my in my uh social media sites because I do think that this is something that’s very much needed here in the United States as well as around the world, uh, but more so in certain areas because of our culture and the way it’s geared to noise and distraction. Not every country is like that, but the US is very much like that. And I can tell you that’s something that as parents, we need uh to have this level of therapy for our children that are suffering from this rumination and this overthinking and these disorders that have come about much more frequently now because they’re diagnosed now. Uh, whereas before, when I was a child, there were no tests, there were no psychologists doing this upper level training that would diagnose and would know how to diagnose these disorders. And so for years we suffered in silence until we started to walk our path and find more avenues of relief. So thank you, uh Shang and Michelle for being on the show. And for the listeners of Released Out Revealed Purpose, you know how I always sign off is to remember Matthew 5:14, to be the light. Be the light, like Shang and Michelle have been the light in their own lives. They were once children that ruminated and overthought things. And because of that pain, they decided to find something that would give them relief. And then not only did they find it, they stepped into their divine calling and became these amazing therapists that are now changing the world. They’re changing it because they can relate to the people that they treat, and they have the tools and the training to help them. And that’s an amazing gift. That’s how we are all meant to work and advance humanity and God’s master plan is by doing the skills that we were born with and doing it to the best of our ability. So thank you, ladies, for getting the level two training and being out there in the world and changing lives. You will likely change minds soon. So I appreciate you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for stepping into your light as powerfully as you have. Uh, have a wonderful and blessed rest of your week. Bye now.
Thank you so much, Sylvia. Thank you so much for giving us this time to come on and share these things. Thanks a lot. We appreciate you.
Thank you so, so much. We appreciate you so much and just the opportunity to be here. It means everything. Thank you.
Thank you, Lady.
So that’s it for today’s episode of Release Doubt, Reveal Purpose. Head on over to iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show. One lucky listener every single week who posts a review on iTunes. We’ll win a chance the grand prize drawing to win a $25,000 private VIP with Sylvia Worstham herself. Be sure to head on over to sylviaworsham.com and pick up a free copy of Sylvia’s gift and join us on the next episode.